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Nissan Oil Filters, made for the Z24,

This is a good read from someone else on this subject of engine rattle and Nissan Oil Filters:
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On my 84 Z24, I recently retarted my timing to 2 degrees, to compensate for low octane fuel. I had pinging because in my "I think I know better" way of thinking, I had my base timing set to 5 degrees. Granted the spec for my truck is 3 degrees, +- 2. At 2 degrees, the engine idles great, runs strong, does not ping, except if I really force it to, and it has more power, at least it thinks it does. The next issue was the "rattle on startup" So I spent hours looking, and found this write up on another blog. Just went to Concord NH, so I stopped at Concord Nissan, because I had them set aside 5 Nissan Oil Filters, P/N 15208-W1106, which supersedes the 15208-1103. If the dealer near you only lists the 1103, he is not up to date with his data. The way i understand it, the Nissan oil filter has a check valve built in, designed for the Nissan engine. So I swapped the "Motorcraft unit that Canadian tire installed, for the Nissan filter, or rather I asked Concord Nissan if they would do it, for how much? and they said, "we'll do it for free" , bring it in. So after they swapped it out, I noticed immediately that I had more oil pressure. And started to take note of it. At initial warm up, with the temperature gauge at normal, and I run a 190 degree thermostat, at say 2500 rpms, the pressure shows almost 75 psi. After running for a couple of hours, to make sure all is warm, running down the highway, at 3000 rpms, the gauge shows 60-65 psi. When I ran the Fram filter in the past I remember only seeing 45-50 psi, and it had me worried. With the increase in oil pressure, and the truck loaded up with weight, as it was time to head back to Canada, and one bottle of Octane boost, the cheap stuff sold at "Dollar tree" for 1 dollar, (had to check it out), I accelerated down the on-ramp, level grade, and noticed that my Z24 was now turning 5200 rpms, and screaming like a Banchee! Wow, what a difference!  It has never ran like that, so I purposely did not add any of the cheap octane boost on the next few tanks, and it still runs like a Banchee! My observation is that I need to run the Nissan Oil filter to get the best performance out of my Z24. Oil pressure is important, and i wanted to note that I have less chain rattle on startup now as well. In Quebec the filter is 10.00 CAD. At Concord Nissan in NH,  list it 8.80 or so, but I bought 5 and told the guy I came all the way from Quebec city to get them, he laughed, your kidding he said, I showed him my drivers license, he laughed even more! But sold them to me for 6.50 US each. Told me if any other folks want them, that if they buy three, he'll sell them for 6.50 each. Said to give him a call, the're on the web, nice folks, they always give me a discount, and the'res no tax in NH, and they never ask me to pay for anything in advance, even if he has to order it. So please have a look at this write-up, it has good information for our 720 groupies. Dattsun Al,  

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(Posted by Twilsey) on www.nissanforums.com Dec 27, 2009, 5:07 pm.......

This is a good read from someone else on this subject of engine rattle and Nissan Oil Filters:

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The ol' Z24 and the KA24 are two entirely differant animals. While I have seen a couple of Z24 chains fail during my time with Nissan, it was very rare.

The NAP-Z engines used two fixed guides with a tensioner foot at the bottom of the chain and the double row timing chain. The KA24E started off with a plastic, fixed timing chain guide and a metal backed "slinger" guide that was pushed by the tensioner to take up the slack in the single row chain. (The GA16i engine used in the 89-90 Sentras/Pulsars had a similar design and similar problems.)

Initially, the first of the KA24E engines were recalled and the tensioner and "slinger" guide were replaced to a modified design.

The next issue started when people started hearing chain rattle during start-up. What happens is that debris can sometimes enter the oil feed channel to the tensioner and restrict the flow and pressure. Once the engine was running, there was sufficient oil pressure to the tensioner to properly tension the chain. However, at start-up situations, the chain would remain "slack" and rattle and would eat away at the top of the fixed, plastic chain guide. In worse cases, the fixed guide would break apart so bad that the timing chain would start cutting into the back of the front cover and could cut into the coolant jacket behind the water pump! Nothing like aluminum shavings and coolant for your engine bearings!

Eventually, Nissan finally smartened up and designed a fixed guide with a metal backing. This didn't necessarily address the main problem, but did keep the fixed guide from breaking apart and making the situation worse. 1995 models and up have the updated guide. 1994 models and earlier have the plastic guides unless they have been replaced with the updated parts. The twin cam, KA24DE, also had a similar design change on the lower chain guide, but they didn't really suffer from the problems that the KA24E did. The KA24DE did suffer from the same problem of sludge build up (usually behind the timing main gear) which caused upper chain rattle, which was "fixed" by eliminating the fixed guides of the upper chain (not really fixing the problem...just the noise).

The KA24E engine would also encounter jumped timing in some cases when the guides failed and the chain slacked. This would also retard the ignition timing as the distributor ran off of the camshaft. This I would usually see on U12 Stanzas and B12 Sentras and generally one tooth seemed to retard the timing about 8 degrees. One tooth jumped, the engine would run, but have little power. More than a few teeth would often result in bent exhaust valves.

As stated, the chains actually held up pretty well. They do not have a recommended replacement interval, like timing belts. Personally, I have a 97 H-body (which came with the KA24E and new style guide). Conventional 5W30 oil was used and Nissan filters with maintainance performed by the factory schedule. I have 200,000 miles + on the engine, which has never been apart and have no chain rattles (knock on wood) so far. I highly recommend the Nissan oil filter (and recommend you NOT use the Fram) and keep up on the oil changes (3000-4000 miles).

If the chain is rattling for 3 to 4 seconds at startup, it is NOT normal unless the oil has just been changed or the vehicle sits for an extended period of time (several weeks). If it is rattling that long of a period, I would recommend new guides and a tensioner. When the tensioner is removed, one can see the oil port. Remove the oil filter and clear out the port by spraying brake cleaner into the tensioner port until it sprays out of the oil filter adapter. Follow that with compressed air, if available. If there is a lot of mileage on the engine, to me it would be foolish not to replace the chain and gears while the cover is off. Obviously replace the old filter and oil prior to startup. 5W30 is recommended, regardless of whether you prefer dino oil or synthetic. It is better for the tiny ports of the hydraulic lifters, which is sometimes another problem with the KA24E engine (valve tap).

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Tags: Filters, Nissan, Oil, Use, best, for, oil, output., pressure, the

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Comment by Dattsun Al on July 26, 2012 at 5:23am

Well as far as performance goes, I've not been here for a few months, but I did install a new timing set, and yes the clacking did get quieter, the chain tensioner was at its limit, the chain was long. Now the engine even likes to rev out, and it has a nice little HONK, to it when I rev it out. Not too bad for a 29 yr old vehicle. Set the timing at 2 degress, we do not have great gas in Quebec city, but I did find a few places I can trust. I just got back from China, was in Chengdu, they have 91, 93, 95, and 97 octane, wish we had it here, the price is about 1.10 a liter, even cheaper than Canada. 

Comment by Dattsun Al on January 29, 2012 at 12:09am

I have only a Haynes manual, and would like the diagram if you don't mind. I'd also like to know where to get an official factory manual. I will look up the discussion on the trans ASAP. Thanks, 

Comment by TigerRacing on January 29, 2012 at 12:00am

There was just a really good discussion on the 5 speed transmissions recently, if you search for it you should be able to find it.  DatsunMike pointed out the most common bearing failure, and shows it's location.  There is a lot of valuable information in that thread.

Comment by TigerRacing on January 28, 2012 at 11:57pm

Well when you replace a head, it's a good time to freshen up the lower end unless of course you're doing it in the truck.  But if there's no issues on the lower end, and you have good compression (which you won't know with a bad head gasket), then putting on a rebuilt head will do nothing to hurt the low end.  But it will do nothing to improve it either.  I've heard this before, and to me it's one of those things one person hears, and keeps repeating.  Unless you got coolant in your oil from having a blown head gasket, there's no need to do the lower end if there aren't any obvious issues.  If you do have coolant in your oil, you should replace your bearings and if you're going to do that, might was well just rebuild it.  Of course, eventually the lower end may have a problem, and then you'll have to pull the engine.  And if you have over 200,000 miles on the low end, you may want to freshen that bottom end up so you don' t have to repeat this exercise again in the near future.

If you have a factory manual, the lubricating circuit is usually in the first few pages of the LC section.  If you need a diagram, I'll scan it as soon as possible and post it here.

Comment by Dattsun Al on January 28, 2012 at 11:01pm

I do not have a diagram on the oiling system, and really I should have known that the oil pump does pickup first from the pan via the screen, do you have a flow diagram? My manual doesn't show one, and I would love to have one. The pinging is gone via setting the timing at 2 degrees advance, and I now use some octane boost. It is in need of a new timing set, and I'm still consuming coolant, so I think a head gasket is in order. I have a freshly rebuilt head on its way. Is it a good idea to install it with the new gasket, and new timing set? A few guys told me not to install a rebuilt head on a used block. They say that the new head might cause the lower end to suffer, and I could have bearing failure. What is your view? I think it should be fine, but not 100% sure. 2) Also, I hear some transmission bearing noise, and I rather don't like it. What is your advice on that?  

Comment by TigerRacing on January 28, 2012 at 10:51pm

An "anti-drainback" valve is incorporated into just about every modern oil filter, including Fram...

http://www.fram.com/learn_more/frequently_asked_questions

Anti-Drainback Valve. Some oil filter mountings may allow oil to drain out of the filter through the oil pump when the engine is stopped. When the engine is next started, oil must refill the filter before full oil pressure reaches the engine. The anti-drainback valve, included in the filter when required, prevents oil from draining out of the filter. This anti-drainback valve is actually a rubber flap that covers the inside of the inlet holes of the filter. When the oil pump starts pumping oil, the pressure will unseat the flap. The purpose of this valve is to keep the oil filter filled at all times, so when the engine is started there will be an almost instantaneous supply of oil to the engine.

Comment by TigerRacing on January 28, 2012 at 10:32pm

The filter is on the outlet of the oil pump, only thing before the oil pump is the stainer in the pan.  The filter can reduce pressure, but it can't increase it.  The pressure sender is after the oil filter (and physically located right above it).  You seeing 60-75psi may be a faulty reading from your sender, you may have much lower pressure than you think, and that might have been what was causing the pinging you were experiencing.  But I use Fran filters for racing, and have for over 10 years.  They flow just fine.

Maybe you had a bad filter, and and a bad oil sender.  But I bet if you put an actual oil pressure gauge on your engine, you won't see 75psi unless at some point you shimmed the oil pump bypass spring, or put a turbo oil pump on that engine...

Comment by Dattsun Al on January 28, 2012 at 9:44pm

Hey, thanks for the photo, I see what you're saying now. As for understanding the pressure relief valve, I pretty well understand it as I sold and repaired them for 10 years or so, gear pumps, and other types from 20 psi, to 1500 psi. some with adjustable relief valves. So I don't know why this guy recommends that we use the Nissan Filter, but I can only say that I do have a higher pressure reading. Oil pressure does support the bearings off the journal, I would say that too low a pressure would allow some bearings to drag, on the journals, causing wear, increasing the clearances, reducing oil pressure, and so forth until we have too  much clearance, then bearing knock. Maybe the issue is with the media in the filter itself, and the flow rate / volume it allows to the pump inlet side, because any restriction on the supply/inlet side of the pump will cause starvation which in turn does affect the output of the pump. Starving the pump, reduces the output volume, and this does affect the pressure. This could be what is happening. What I see on the gauge now, does make me feel better. In my history I did also work for an Oil Filtration company, we built oil filters for industrial manufacturing companies like GE, Ford, and other subsidiaries, who where associated with piston, turbine, and aircraft jet engines. Our filters used different media for different oils, and processes. I can tell you that if the customer had to use a slightly different filter media in our filters, it did have a big effect on how the filter ran, and its output. Example of the size of these units is a small filter was the size of and Altima, a large filter, you could park a greyhound bus in it. So thats what I'm thinking it might be. General filter manufacturers will use generic media suppliers, and to note, some media is junk, and other brands are superb in performance, and quality. At Hydroflow we always sold out units with the highest quality media on the market, because we had to guarantee filter performance. We did have some customers who went out on their own, and tried other medias, only to come back because they had problems with flow, supply and output. So that's what I think it might be, and I will look into that part of it, when time better allows for it. At the moment I have to put the 84 on track to USA to resolve a Cargo trailer issue, that I sold, that I have to repo. Thanks for your post, I always appreciate them, and a chance to get into this stuff, I get more knowledge each time. 

Comment by TigerRacing on January 28, 2012 at 8:41pm

Comment by TigerRacing on January 28, 2012 at 3:53pm

Well the way I see this is, even if there is a check valve in the filter (and that post doesn't really specify if the change was to having a check valve, or to not having one), it would only be there to hold more oil in the top of the engine so the cam and timing chain would get oil quicker on start up.  It's not there to increase your oil pressure.

I'm willing to spend $6 on a filter to get to the heart of the check valve question, but the question of increasing the oil pressure would still remain, the oil pump won't supply a higher pressure than it's set up to supply before bypassing internally.  Changing the filter, doesn't change that setting.

You see any check valve will have a rating called a "cracking pressure" which is the minimum pressure inlet to outlet which is required to open it.  And it needs to maintain this pressure difference  in order to remain open.  In the process, it will actually be dropping that amount a pressure from the supply side.   So, if you have 40 psi supply pressure, and you have a check valve with a cracking pressure of 2 psi, then the most pressure you'll have on the downstream side of the check valve is 38 psi...  It can only decrease the pressure, not increase it.

But if there was a change in oil filters at some point for top oiling issues, then there should be a corresponding technical bulletin to go along with it.  I'll leave that to our resident expert DatsunMike to check into since I know he has access to such information.

 

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